Talk:Hellfire Club

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John Wilkes[edit]

Why is John Wilkes not listed as a member? His article seems fairly certain. What was Wilkes' prank that wound up the club (see John Wilkes#Early life)? Cutler 11:42, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

The anecdote was that Wilkes put mock horns on an orang utang, while folks were doing a mock black mass, and as the article recounts someone fell for it.'-- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 11:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Paul Whitehead[edit]

I clicked on Paul Whitehead's Wikipedia link and was directed to an artist who created album covers for the rock band Genesis. This is humanly impossible, as this entry lists a man of the same name as a founder of the Hellfire Club. This should be corrected.

Then start an article on the 18th-Century Whitehead and create a disambiguation page, or remove the link, if need be. This kind of stuff happens all the time with names, especially such common ones. Fearwig 01:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

DAB[edit]

Should this page become a disambiguation and split into its components? -- UtherSRG 01:29, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Maybe move the section about the comic-book Hellfire Club to its own page, but leave the rest here? —Paul A 01:39, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I support a dab page Cutler 10:10, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

Accuracy[edit]

I don't particularly like that the article cites mainly non-informational sources of the same name while making some claims that would surely be controversial if enough interest were involved. What sources cited pseudo-Satanic rites, orgies, et cetera? I mean, it doesn't sound altogether outside Wilkes's sense of humor, but it's exactly the kind of thing his opponents would be muttering about him for a laugh. The top source actually cites secondaries, but it debunks most of the controversy as myth. Why does the article reference it as established fact?Fearwig 01:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Other uses[edit]

An "other uses" list and a disambiguation page? Truly, Sir Francis, with these Hellfire clubs you are spoiling us! I will attempt to sort this out. Totnesmartin 10:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Mere Existence[edit]

The problem with this topic is that there is no evidence whatever, not anywhere, that the "Hellfire Club" as discussed in the article actually had any existence. With the exception of a mention by Horace Walpole and a short paragraph in Chrysal there are no sources to cite... My own opinion is that the "club" as such did not exist - perhaps there was once or twice a rumbistious gathering or two, which other people referred to as a Hellfire Club but...

It's a bit like the "Bloomsbury Group" - they categorically didn't think of themselves as a group, but others did - whose word do we take? and how do you tell the story of something that, at least in the eyes of the supposed participants, did not exist?

There are some amusing and interesting speculations, and a lot to be said about the people supposed to have been concerned in it, however. The line one has to walk is between saying "it didn't exist" and cutting out what cannot be sourced, and saying "this is supposition" and then trying to recite at least a digest of the received wisdom. Ho hum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypherpress (talkcontribs) 17:10, March 31, 2007

What absolute rubbish, Cypherpress. Of course the Hellfire Club existed, and of course there is proof it did. Not only is there plenty of documentary evidence, but the direct "descendents" of the Club, the Phoenix Common Room at Brasenose, still own several artefacts that belonged to the Club (silverware etc). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.67.1 (talk) 11:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The request for sources really just means that the authors from whose books all of the claims and assertions upon which the current article is built could, and should, be mentioned. For instance, I'm currently reading av book by Estonian conspiracy researcher Jüri Lina called Architects of Deception from 2004. It may not be considered solid and reliable by Wikipedia standards, however, it would be a place to start instead of having no such references. Then better sources could be listed as they surfaced. __meco 17:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
well, I've cited the two contemporary references that I know of to Hellfire activities. I don't particularly want to cite modern references whose conclusions are wrong, misguided or fanciful - citation gives them an authority they don't have. I realise some of the problems this poses, so I'm going to go and have a look at how the wiki on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion deals with this area to find out how to proceed. --Cypherpress 17:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm very new to the wikipedia editing process, but I just thought I'd mention the book *The Hellfire Club* by Daniel P. Mannix. The book doesn't appear to be scholarly in that it doesn't cite sources (if I remember correctly), but as Meco was suggesting, it might be a good place to start. I just wanted to ask on the talk page before actually doing anything (you guys are more experienced than I), but would it be alright if I revised the article with information from Mannix's book, given its "unscholarliness"? Paswas n 23:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

'The widely celebrated 'Hell-Fire Club' was founded by the first Earl of Rosse, Colonel Jack St Leger, and a humorous painter named Worsdale in about 1735, meeting in the Eagle Tavern in Cork Hill[Dublin][...]The amusements of the Hellfire Club...no doubt resembled the activities of the similar groups in England; no doubt the stories of black masses and so forth have some basis in fact[..]it is less certain that the Club had any connection with [Speaker]Conolly's shooting-lodge on Montpelier Hill at the foot of the Dublin Mountains, which is now universally known as the 'Hell-Fire Club'. It is of course, possible that the Club may at times have exchanged the confined of a city tavern for the larger and more intoxicating air of a romantic hill-top...' -Dublin 1660-1860 The Shaping of a City, Maurice Craig —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.46.215 (talk) 16:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

What this means?[edit]

"The suspense of Olivier Assayas film Demonlover (2002) partly regards The Hellfire Club both as a critical element and as a metaphorical border between reality and virtual world. " Axamoto 14:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

So what is it?[edit]

I came to this article hoping to learn a bit more, but there doesn't seem to be anything written about what the Hellfire Club actually was.MightyAtom 11:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Marvel's Hellfire Club[edit]

Should there be a mention of the Hellfire Club from X-Men somewhere since it's loosely based on the original club, or is the disambiguation page enough? Ichliebezuko (talk) 16:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Typically things on the disambiguation page aren't also mentioned in the article. Will in China (talk) 16:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.  :) Ichliebezuko (talk) 16:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography now has a "theme" article on the "Franciscans" and membership in the Medmenham friars is mentioned in biographies of several supposed participants. See James Sambrook, "Franciscans (act. c. 1750-c.1776), Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, online edn., Oxford University Press, May 2008, http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/theme/71306 and (for example) R. D. E. Eagles, ‘Potter, Thomas (1718?–1759)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, Sept 2004; online edn, Jan 2008 http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/22619, accessed 7 Nov 2008]76.115.64.167 (talk) 08:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Confusing timeline[edit]

The article mixes the chronology of two different clubs in such a way that is confusing. "Founders and members" introduces Wharton's club and Dashwood's club but fails to make clear that Wharton's was some 30 years before Dashwood. That section mentions the year 1758, (Wharton was over 20 years dead by then), but the next section jumps back to Wharton's, then to Dashwood's whereupon the subsequent section jumps back to 1721 then back to Wharton's and 1762! Could someone with access to the sources make the chronology clearer? Maybe keep sections for each club separate? 84user (talk) 12:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree this article seems to be about two different entities (Wharton's Club and Dashwood's Club) mixed confusingly together. They should certainly be seperated out, possibly into seperate articles. Mutt (talk) 23:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Over a year later, I've divided the content into a section for each club. -84user (talk) 00:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

How do you join[edit]

I just wanted some one to tell me how one joins satanism without first paying money but an offer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.199.17.44 (talk) 05:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Exectutive Intelligence Review[edit]

This is not a reputable source, it's a kook publication affiliated with the Lyndon LaRouche organizations.

68.48.189.164 (talk) 08:10, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


Added entry to references in Literature[edit]

Added an entry for Fatal Voyage by Kathy Reichs. Pretty minor change, I only mention it because it doesn't have an existing page and I'm not sure how to cite it or even if I need to. It concerns a (fictional) modern-day Hellfire Club that practices human sacrifice, and actually gives quite a bit of history about the real one as well.

Didiercollard (talk) 06:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Baboon[edit]

No mention of the baboon incident? That should be prominently discussed. Drutt (talk) 23:49, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Needs fixing[edit]

"At the time of the "London's gentlemen's club", And Monching was the @nd founder of this club as known. where there was a meeting place" - no idea what that should say, but it isn't that! 81.158.1.138 (talk) 23:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Notes[edit]

References for the Notes section are incomplete - see Blackett-Ord. There is no bibliographical information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.21.202 (talk) 07:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that, too and added a line for Blackett-Ord and and incomplete citation tag. I wonder if the book is Hell-Fire Duke by Blackett-Ord. I am unable to view this in Amazon or Google Books. Does anyone know?
Also, there are two short citations without an author, but the cited sentence says "according to Blackett-Ord", so I'm guessing the reference is Blackett-Ord, but I don't know for sure. I also added an incomplete citation tag for those two citations.
--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:11, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

In Popular Culture[edit]

This may or may not be appropriate to the discussion, but Lindsay Anderson's O Lucky Man! includes a vaguely salacious and debauched scene which perfectly fits the description of a modern day version of the club. The club in the film, however, is never given a name.--Giobruno (talk) 11:44, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

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